German Police Raid 51 CeBIT Stands Over Patent Claims

LeCaddie writes "Last week German investigators raided 51 exhibitor stands at CeBIT, the German information technology fair in Hanover, looking for goods suspected of infringing patents. Some 183 police, customs officers, and prosecutors raided the fair on Wednesday and carried off 68 boxes of electronic goods and documents including cellphones, navigation devices, digital picture frames, and flat-screen monitors. Of the 51 companies raided, 24 were Chinese. Most of the patents concerned were related to devices with MP3, MP4, and DVB standard functions for digital audio and video, blank CDs, and DVD copiers, police said." In the US there are no criminal penalties associated with patents, and such a raid could not be conducted, especially in the absence of a court ruling of infringement.

HA-HA

Guess that's the last time there'll be another IT fair in Germany.

Re:HA-HA

This is an annual event. Same as CeBIT itself. It is not the fist time, it is not the last time. And frankly as far as some manufacturers are concerned infringing until you get nailed is the way to do business so I do not quite see what does this change. So I will disagree. There WILL be another IT fair in Germany and there will be another bust there.

Re:

Actually, i expect another raid during the IFA (consumer electronics show) in Berlin, end of august. And again, Roberto Dini of Sisvel will deny any responsibility.

Re:HA-HA

Guess that's the last time there'll be another IT fair in Germany.

It's been this way for years, it's kind of a ritual. Somehow I doubt it's contributed significantly to Cebit's decline.

Re:HA-HA

I read another report that said it was about product piracy (fake iPhones etc.). I find that version easier to believe, since AFAIK patents are a purely civil matter across Europe. And you can bet your ass that if it was piracy-related, the same could happen in the US as well. Here in Canada/Vancouver, we had similar raids last summer on some open air markets where police were cracking down on vendors selling fake Prada purses and the like.

Re:HA-HA

Yeah, from what I can gather from the various online German news outlets reporting on this the target of the raid was counterfit products, not patent violations. Booths belonging to Chinese companies were selling blatant iPhone ripoffs, like Meizu Technology's "MiniOne" [vvallo.com], and the police shut them down.

MiniOne

Hmm only $195 for a 4gb version? Where do i buy one? I could care less about any 'infringing' as i don't believe in IP rights.

Re:MiniOne

'course, you can probably also forget about things like warranties or safety testing.

Re:MiniOne

You're ignorant (no offense) if you think the quality of Chinese rip-offs comes close to the real products. I've spent the last two years in Asia, in a country where such fake products are plentiful. I bought a "Sony" discman for part of my stay there. It wasn't so bad since I could just take it to some local, hole-in-the-wall electronics shack and they could fix whatever electronic components had failed while I waited (which occurred fairly regularly), but there is no way any product like that would be put-up with by most Americans, with or without access to a cheap electronic repair outlet. I won't argue with you whether or not real, brand-name electronics have been reduced in quality over the past years (I think they have), but in no way do they approach the shoddy quality (both interior and exterior) of the fake stuff, believe me.

Re:MiniOne

In this day and age of shoddy products from most every manufacturer/importer, tell me why i should care?

Let's see:

Cheapo knockoff iPhone sits in your pants pocket, several inches away from your testicles.

Cheapo knockoff iPhone has embedded in it a cheapo knockoff Sony Lithium battery that is even more likely to overheat than the real one.

Cheapo knockoff iPhone has cheapo knockoff current limiters on the battery and cheapo knockoff components in the battery supervisor circuit.

Next step left as exercise for the student.

Re:

We can argue the same things for sony vaio's!

Let's see:

Expensive sony vaio sits on your pants (lap), several inches away from your testicles.

Expensive sony vaio has in it an expensive certified Sony rechargeable battery that is even more likely to overheat than an aftermarket one.

Expensive sony vaio has cheapo cooling heatsink and causes overheating issues including notebook shutdowns and has spawned many "freeze" sites to document problems.

Expensive sony vaio has customer service, but it is so bad it's better not to use them. Actually more expensive to use them than to just ignore the problem or replace device with another brand.

Next step left as exercise for the student.

I mean honestly, spending a few grand on a vaio i thought i was getting a quality product. Everyone said they were second to IBM (at the time) think pads. I had already learned my lessons through the years with all the junk they make (walk mans, cd mans, car cd mans, head units for cars, home stereos, tv's, radios etc etc) that has broken down on me. But i trusted everyones advice and ended up getting burned in the end.

So whats worse? buying a product y

Re:

Booths belonging to Chinese companies were selling blatant iPhone ripoffs, like Meizu Technology's "MiniOne", and the police shut them down.

Well, at least in the case of Meizu, the reason was apparently not the iPhone ripoff.

http://www.engadget.com/2008/03/05/meizus-cebit-booth-shut-down-over-mp3-licensing-issues-not-the/ [engadget.com]

Re:HA-HA

An item is only a 'counterfeit' if it tries to pass itself off as the original. So, if the MiniOne does not have the iPhone name or logo on it, it is not counterfeit. So, I have to ask anyone who has seen this product... Does it say iPhone, or have an Apple logo on it?

Re:

Does it say iPhone, or have an Apple logo on it?

It runs Windows Mobile, it's a look-alike, not a counterfeit.

It's about MP3 patents, not Apple.

http://www.meizume.com/ [meizume.com] : "According to forum posts by Meizu CEO Jack Wong, the raid was initiated by Sisvel due to the lack of a Sisvel (patent holder of MP3 format) license."

Not counterfeit

According to one of Germany's reputable news sources Spiegel Online [spiegel.de] (in German) early reports suspected counterfeit claims by companies such as Apple, but it has since become clear that the Italian company Sisvel has filed suit over MP3 patent infringements and thereby caused the raid of stands offering mp3/4 players et al.

There have since been further confiscations of GPS/navigation systems too.

Software patents?

Most of the patents concerned were related to devices with MP3, MP4, and DVB standard functions for digital audio and video, blank CDs, and DVD copiers

I thought software patents were illegal in Europe

Re:Software patents?

I thought software patents were illegal in Europe

Europe isn't a country...

 

Re:

Considering the EU has a Constitution, free travel from member state to member state, free trade within I would say it could be considered a country.

Re:

Europe isn't a country...

Re:Software patents?

Europe isn't a country...

Indeed, its more a sort of political soufflé

Re:Software patents?

You still need a passport for traveling between (european) countries... We're not there yet...

And here in the US we're on our way to needing passports to travel from state to state :-)

I kid, but only a little.

Re:Software patents?

The United States is a collection of independent "states" with their own independent constitutions, law making bodies, courts, etc... they are then united with other "states" under a unifying constitution which provides for its own organized law-making body, courts, etc...

Now... compare this to EU "countries" which have their own independent constitutions, law making bodies, courts etc... and then are united with other "countries" under a unifying constitution which provides for its own organized law-making body, courts, etc...

Playing my own devil's advocate... Even individuals states in the USA can have their own armies, called "State Defense Forces". Although only half (25) of the states have such an army, they do exist, and all state legislatures have authorized the creation and maintenance of such forces. A final argument might be that unlike EU countries, individual states in the USA do not partake in foreign affairs and do not have foreign delegates. This might be true to an extent, but border-states, such as California and Texas, certainly must deal with some level of foreign affairs.

Hmm... yeah, the EU and the USA are really different. If the USA is a country, than the EU is a country. If Germany is a country, than Pennsylvania is too. I think this is a matter of pride and perception than it is about terminology, or even reality. Finally, a distinction should be drawn against the EU and "Europe", such as there is a distinction between the USA and "North America". One is a country, the other is a continent.

Re:

Even individuals states in the USA can have their own armies, called "State Defense Forces". Although only half (25) of the states have such an army, they do exist, and all state legislatures have authorized the creation and maintenance of such forces.

No point in going that far, it's not like all the military bases are in DC. By the time people get pissed enough to split off, I doubt the people stationed in (and possibly from) $STATE will be all that thrilled, either.

Re:

"Finally, a distinction should be drawn against the EU and "Europe", such as there is a distinction between the USA and "North America". One is a country, the other is a continent."

Indeed, but America commonly means the USA and not the two continents. I often consider that Norway is in Northern Europe, but not in Europe, and let's face it. The distinction between saying EU and Europe is really thin these days.

Re:Software patents?

The situation is complex. Traditional definitions of country include issuing money and sovereignty (ie no other states have power over what happens in your territory); many EU countries do not have their own currency (and hence monetary politics) and although sovereign countries can 'give away' part of their sovereignty in treaties while still remaining a sovereign country you can make a convincing case that current European decision making *and* judiciary is going beyond that.

On the other hand: there is no european army or police force; the Iraq war showed convincingly that there is no European foreign policy; european 'law' only becomes law by national legislatures passing national laws that implement European directives; there is *no* european constitution since some members decided not to ratify it (but there are tons of treaties that could be interpreted as forming the constitution); there is no sensible European Parliament; the european equivalent of the 'bill of rights' is the European Convention on Human Rights which is the Council of Europe rather than the EU, which includes Russia and Switserland. Very importantly, EU citizens in the great majority consider themselves national citizens first, and europeans second (or third, after region/city), and the elections that count are national elections, which are generally about national issues.

"Country" is a useful abstraction that has high explanatory power, but it is ultimately a projection of a complicated continuum on a dichotomous variable. Entities like Pennsylvania, Scotland, Liechtenstein, the EU, Kosovo, Taiwan, Hongkong, etc. show that the discussion is a lot more complicated than that.

IMHO, the really interesting question is not whether the EU is a country or not, it is whether we want to delegate more power to
'Brussels' and how we can control such power. The colonies that became the USA went through the same process more than two hundred years ago, and they had an external threat to convince people that a confederation was not enough. Also, the US shows that even a constitution framed by very intelligent people who did their utmost to limit the power of the federal government to an enumerated set can gradually become a much more centralized state without changing its constitution, so without giving the member states and direct say in the matter. This makes me (as an EU citizen) wary of the EU becoming a confederacy or even federal state, as I would be afraid that it will gradually shift to a more centralized state.

Anyway... :-)

Re:

Pointing to the Confederacy and saying that individual states are welcome to break away is like pointing to an apprehended criminal and saying that we are free to commit crime. If states in the US break away, the US government is willing to go to war to bring them back. Contrast this with the EU, where the right to secede is enshrined in the founding charter.

Re:

If you travel between non-Schengen countries, then yes. Otherwise, the only indicator that you crossed a border may be a change in the language of the road signs, or at most a "welcome" sign like you see when crossing between US states or between Canadian provinces.

Re:

What does that have to do with anything? If something can be illegal, then it can be illegal in a country, in a continent, on a plane, in a box, under a table, while in a moving vehicle or while eating ham sandwiches, unless something specific about the law rules that particular situation out.

Re:

Most of the patents concerned were related to devices with MP3, MP4, and DVB standard functions for digital audio and video, blank CDs, and DVD copiers

I thought software patents were illegal in Europe

This is mainly about actual devices, not about mere software. MP3 is kind of interesting because a second essential[*] patent pool has established itself, completely separate from the Fraunhofer/Thomson pool that everybody has licensed.

[*] Essential for portable MP3 players and similar devices.

Re:

This is mainly about actual devices, not about mere software.

Nonsense. MP3 is a data design and an algorithm.

Re:

You mean like cd's and tv, where data arrives in a stream and needs to be decoded into actual sound/images ?

Re:

Why use mp3 in a situation where you might be in trouble over patents? There are plenty of other codecs out there, ogg for one. Most ripper programs hat I know of can rip to ogg, and there are conversion tools. It wouldn't be hard to set up a conversion system.

How long is it until mp3 is out of patent anyway?

Re:

"Why use mp3 in a situation where you might be in trouble over patents? There are plenty of other codecs out there, ogg for one. Most ripper programs hat I know of can rip to ogg, and there are conversion tools. It wouldn't be hard to set up a conversion system."

Sadly, there's not much of a market for Ogg-only players. I'm perfectly aware that Slashdotters would have not the slightest issue with purchasing a FLAC-only or Ogg-only player, but we're the very tippy-top of the market. The Chinese knockoff v

Re:

Why use mp3 in a situation where you might be in trouble over patents? There are plenty of other codecs out there, ogg for one. Most ripper programs hat I know of can rip to ogg, and there are conversion tools. It wouldn't be hard to set up a conversion system.

Because regardless of its merits, Ogg's usage is extremely rare outside of geek circles. Even amongst Slashdot readers, I'd guess that although most of us are aware of it, only a small proportion actually encode their music using it.

It's the old critical mass chicken-and-egg thing, and I'm not convinced that Ogg Vorbis will ever reach that breakthrough point.

As for conversion... frankly, most people would ask *why* they should bother converting their music to another format just to listen to it on some

Re:

Portable music player chipsets already include MP3 support, partly in hardware and partly in firmware. It would now actually be more expensive to build a player without MP3 support, since you could not use off-the-shelf components to do it. Patent royalties are a very small part of the total cost of the device. Really, it is a non-issue.

Re:Software patents?

I thought software patents were illegal in Europe.

It is not about software patents. It is about embedded devices (hence not "computers") with a specific functionality profile. At least German law enforcement has not yet grasped that a phone can actually have software downloaded into it and so not all functionality is "hardcoded". Also a device can be in violation of "Musterschutz" (something like the "look" part from "look and feel"), by closly following the design of an other device.

Side note: MP3 as a method or as an encoder/decoder is not protected, but the parameter set used is (as far as I understand this). As to the CDs, these were likely counterfit, i.e. claiming a different manufacturer. That is trademark infringement. DVD copier could be classified as "circumvention device" for copy protection shemes, which are illegal in Germany. (I know, I know, lawmakers with no grasp of technology...)

My guess is that this raid will actually result in no or very little prosecution. But the displays have been removed, so the patent holders are satisfied. Unfortunately it will be very difficult to get any compensation for the damage done, even if equipment was seized in error.

Re:

No, illegal would make it criminal to have one.

Software patents are not honored by the EU patent court nor honored by most member countries. (Which means anyone being challenged about a software patent can get it to European court where such a suit would fail.)

Shh, don't give them ideas.

In the US there are no criminal penalties associated with patents, and such a raid could not be conducted,

I'm sure our lobbyists and politicians will get right to work on fixing that.

dept.?

So, is this from the police dept.?

There are German companies with IP behind this

The Fraunhofer Institute, who invented the MP3 and makes similar formats, is likely a source of information about the violators of at least the codec IP infringement. MP3 and many other formats aren't in the public domain in the GPL sense. They're likely behind part of this.

Re:

No. Thompson manages the patents for the Fraunhofer institute.
They have nothing to do with this. Sisvel manages another stack
of patents that they claim to be relevant to the mp3 format.

Apparently, the most important of those patents is for a padding
bit. The idea is to add zeros to a VBR file so that a CBR only
decoder can handle the file.

It looks like...

..a police station just got new kit on the cheap.

It's only to be expected.

The booths in question were from firms based in Poland, Hungary, and the former Czechoslovakia. It was just force of habit.

No criminal penalties in the US

Today. Give the IP conglomerates a few more years of buying votes/laws and that may change. And just think, your tax dollars will be used to fund the raids on what should be a civil issue.

 

This was mostly about 'product piracy'.

This was mostly about cheap-ass asian style 'product piracy'. iPhone lookalikes with clear intent to be confused with the iPhone (right down to the packaging), 100% iPod shuffle ripp-offs and implementation of commercial MP3 decoders from companies who weren't paying the licencing fees to the Frauenhofer Institut.

The chinese ripping off IP is a big issue in Germany. They order a machine, dismantle it and copy it exactly, down to the last bolt and then sell cheap low-quality knock-offs of it back to Europe.

My cousin (engineer at Airbus) tells me there even is an Airbus 320 that went to China some time ago. That was it's only flight and it never appeared again. He suspects it's lying around somewhere dismantled and analysed.

Re:This was mostly about 'product piracy'.

My cousin (engineer at Airbus) tells me there even is an Airbus 320 that went to China some time ago. That was it's only flight and it never appeared again. He suspects it's lying around somewhere dismantled and analysed.

Airbus sent a 55 million Euro aircraft to a client in China, it never came back, and they never asked for it back, and this has never been discussed in any media that I can find?

I'm not entirely convinced just yet.

Re:very, very dangerous

the german govenment installed gestapo-2.0

Re:Somehow I get the impression they want it to di

Both MS (http://www.cebit.de/suche/popup/kurzliste.html?vst_jahr=2008&vst_nummer=007&sprache=1&session=1&halle=004 [cebit.de]) and Sun (http://www.cebit.de/suche/popup/kurzliste.html?vst_jahr=2008&vst_nummer=007&sprache=1&session=1&halle=002 [cebit.de]) did attend this year's show.

The summary got it RIGHT

No, actually you got it wrong. It was acknowledged by law enforcement officials that the raid was about patents. From http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/104657 [heise.de]:

Auslöser für die Aktion waren den Angaben der Staatsanwaltschaft zufolge Strafanzeigen der Rechteinhaber. Bei der Razzia sei es vorwiegend um Patente für Datenkompressionsverfahren, DVB-Standards und DVDs gegangen, sagte Kriminaloberrat Oliver Stock, der die Aktion koordiniert hatte und sich über einen "erfolgreichen Abschluss" freute.

Bad translation (by me):

According to the public prosecutors office complaints by holders of rights were reason for the action. Law enforcement senior councillor Oliver Stock who coordinated the action and was glad about the "successfull completion" said target of the raid where mainly patents for data compression, DVB standards and DVDs.

There were some initial (wrong) reports that reason for the raid was counterfeiting (iPhone look-a-likes) but these reports were later corrected, see for example http://www.heise.de/english/newsticker/news/104591 [heise.de] (in english).

Re:9 from German

24 were from mainland China, three from Hong Kong and 12 from Taiwan

I'd like to say 39 were Chinese.

Nice troll, and quite a hot topic in the region at the moment. Interesting how an off topic, political troll got modded +5 informative. Must be a lot of pro one china types with mod points today who read slashdot before they started work. Interesting times ahead I think.