Hawking Searching For Africa's Einsteins

nuke-alwin writes "Stephen Hawking has traveled to South Africa in search of Africa's Einsteins. The project will create Africa's first post-graduate center for math and physics. The British government has unfortunately decided not to back the project, which is hoping to fight poverty by identifying the kind of talent that can create wealth." Neil Turok is deeply involved as well; he was recently named to head the Perimeter Institute in Canada, whose server we brought to its knees this morning.

Niel Turok

Niel Turok was quoted as saying, "I'll also help defend the starving African children from rampaging dinosaurs, free of charge."

Brain drain, ver 0.1

So, if these math geniuses get a degree there, whats to keep them from just moving out of country? Nothing? Honestly, if I were born in an absolutely impoverished country, and ended up being a genius and getting a graduate degree in mathematics, I'm sure I'd hop on the first chance at a big corporate job in some other country.

Re:Brain drain, ver 0.1

Because they're not tools. I know many Indian (real India) and Chinese nationals who plan to move back to their "impoverished" countries to work and play.

Re:Brain drain, ver 0.1

The more you know *rainbow star goes by*

Re:Brain drain, ver 0.1

India and China have seriously better prospects than say Sierra Leone [theconnection.org] or Ethiopia. [bbc.co.uk] By contrast to many Sub-Saharan African countries where there is no wealth to be had, China gained 50 new billionaires in 2007 [forbes.com] and India has three of the world's ten richest people. [forbes.com] While they aren't yet at the EU's standard of living, to call modern day China or India impoverished is laughable.

Re:Brain drain, ver 0.1

O FFS, using extreme examples like Sierra Leone to generalize about Africa is just ridiculous. I live in South Africa, and there are a lot of bright people here, both South Africans and from other African countries. We need an initiative like this - if some of the people choose to leave with their skills, so be it, but many will choose to stay and apply their knowledge here. With your reasoning: Maybe the USA should stop building universities, because we all know Noth American countries like Nicaragua and Honduras are dirt poor and just a waste of any attempt at excellence.

Re:Brain drain, ver 0.1

that may be true, but i've notice that a lot of smart, wealthy successful people eventually "go home" in some sense, not always physically, of course. They may donate to local causes, invest, become involved in politics or advocacy. whatever they do, they probably would not have been able without opportunities like this.

Re:Brain drain, ver 0.1

i've notice[d] that a lot of smart, wealthy successful people

And how many of those wealthy successful people were mathematicians and physicists? Smart, certainly. But wealthy?

Re:Brain drain, ver 0.1

I'm pretty sure there's loads of math involved in economics and things like managing hedge funds. Don't CEOs make something on the order of 10 trillion dollars a second?

Re:Brain drain, ver 0.1

Well.. certainly more math than you've demonstrated the capacity for...

Re:Brain drain, ver 0.1

A lot of people who get big corporate jobs in wealthy countries send money back to where they came from, benefitting the local economy. Go to Moroccan villages and you can see loads of fancy houses being built by people currently working in France who plan on coming home and retiring early. Software engineers from India who have come to the U.S. after training in India have gone home after a few years and founded companies with the money they saved. Cities in Romania like Cluj enjoy higher standards of living than other parts of the country because, thanks to the good education and English-language skills, people work hard abroad and then come back to indulge themselves. The list goes on and on. If you train people in a poor country, many will go and never return. However, some will make something of themselves abroad with their education and come back, which is a win for the local economy.

Re:Brain drain, ver 0.1

Not as much of a win as keeping them in-country the entire time. The countries still loose out overall. They're starting with college degrees already, and these people could help significantly by being engineers and such in their home countries.

Honestly, I don't begrudge them wanting better for themselves and their family if they send money home (would do the same myself), I'm just looking at it from a national perspective.

Re:

They are only more of an asset to their country by staying home, if the countries problems can be solved with math. Brilliant engineering isn't going to make Darfur a good place to live. Ethiopia's famines are not brought on by a lack of agricultural knowledge. Proving corruption mathematically isn't going to make corrupt government officials suddenly altruistic.

Re:Brain drain, ver 0.1

Not as much of a win as keeping them in-country the entire time.

Except that impoverished countries are missing another critical element to escaping poverty: capital. When their best and brightest go forth and earn lots of money, then either send it home or come back, it acts as a catalyst that can fuel further development.

Even in countries with lots of natural resources (Nigeria, for example), there's very little if any capital floating around. You can't expect someone to create a multi-billion dollar company from scratch.

Re:Brain drain, ver 0.1

That's you - and many others I'm sure.

You don't know what it's like to grow up in an impoverished country. Hence you don't know what it's like to hurt for your country and to have a sense of duty to make it better.

Also, just because the talent is exported, people can still do great things to enable others to become great. You see this in soccer all the time. African talent is being exported to the top clubs in Europe but many players go back home to establish soccer academies, schools and the like.

Hats off to Hawking.

Re:Brain drain, ver 0.1

Whether they go back home or not is not as important as providing the opportunity for these gifted individuals. They may still contribute something to the world, regardless of their location.

Re:Brain drain, ver 0.1

I personally know someone who attended a good college here in the states, got a job with MS back in the late 80s/early 90s, cashed out, and moved back to Africa to found a college.

Some people do genuinely have a feeling of responsibility.

That aside, it is an established fact that people living outside impoverished areas send a lot of money back home. In some countries, this is the primary source of foreign currency.

Re:Brain drain, ver 0.1

If this is the same person I'm thinking of, he gave a TED talk [ted.com] on Africa and his university not long ago.

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I'm sure the family you leave behind in said poverty would love you for it, too. Nobody grows up in a vacuum.

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So, if these math geniuses get a degree there, whats to keep them from just moving out of country? Nothing? Honestly, if I were born in an absolutely impoverished country, and ended up being a genius and getting a graduate degree in mathematics, I'm sure I'd hop on the first chance at a big corporate job in some other country.

Would you? Perhaps for a while; a good many graduates from both first and third world countries fancy the idea of working abroad for a while. But not many people have the blood to

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Because -as hard as it may be to believe this for you- some people actually have an attachment to their birth country.

Why ? Because big corporate jobs are lonely, strange and unfulfilling. A wife and family in your birth country is what most prefer.

And some people have morals and see that as a chance to give back.

Or they get older and take a teaching position in their home country.

Lots of reasons.

Re:Brain drain, ver 0.1

I'd hop on the first chance at a big corporate job in some other country.

In my village in Northern India, more and more people are moving back to the village, after going to universities in Canada, the USA and England, and having become (relatively) rich. My dad is a first generation immigrant to Canada from India, and we are a middle class family, my dad drives a taxi (I know, stereotypical,) and my mom works in a bank. My dad just went back to India last month to build 4 3 story houses in our village, one for him (when he goes back) and 3 for his brothers and their families. A little money goes a long way in these impoverished regions, and not only does this stimulate the local economy with all the construction, but when I went there my dad paid for a year of broadband internet for the local school, and I am saving up for a dozen or so cheap desktop computers to bring there next time I go.
The point is that when people go back to the poor areas where they or their ancestors grew up, the feel a duty to improve the quality of life for the residents there.
The lucky few that get out, generally will try and make it easier for others to get out, and as time goes on the quality of life can only get better.

Re:Brain drain, ver 0.1

One of the issues that I have with my dad building the houses etc is that there will still be people who are basically servants, who are of a lower caste. We are traditionally farmers, Jatts, and are normally pretty average on the caste hierarchy, but because so many Jatts moved to Canada/England and the US, they have become more affluent and returned with their newfound riches to try and better the lives of the people who can't leave. I would like to say that there is no classism, but classist undertones are felt throughout the community. The kids of all castes go to school together, there are affirmative action-like programs to try and get people of lower castes to get government jobs (where they will probably become corrupt/rich, the dream of way too many Indians.)
My close family is comparatively liberal and accepting, but far from perfect. My uncle married a white woman, I have some cousins who are half Filipino etc, but inter caste marriages are hard to come by, personally, I would try and avoid "shaming" my family, because I know that my extended family would be pissed, and being alienated is basically a guarantee.

Re:Brain drain, ver 0.1

Despite how people play the "brain drain" story, how many people in any country even feel that the job they're doing REALLY benefits their country directly? Sure you may feel you're benefiting your company/boss, but your contribution feels so diluted by the time it reaches the country level it doesn't even matter.

One can talk about "some kind of loyalty to the country" but calling that into question based on taking a overseas job because you want better pay to help support yourself and your family is utterly unfair. We all want to see our country do well, but sometimes you can help more by becoming an export that keeps paying the country back. If you want to use nonsense metrics to compare ones sense of civic duty, why don't you compare voter turnout: US voter turnout in 2004 was 56%, compared to South Africa at 77%.

(I am South African, I have worked in the UK, I am now living back in South Africa and did bring money back.)

Remind me again...

Where did Einstein do his post-graduate work?

The purpose?

If the purpose is to somehow stimulate the local economy, I think it would make more sense to help build and expand the underlying infrastructure that would eventually lead to the desire to have top math/science experts in the region. Otherwise they will most likely just move somewhere where they're actually wanted and can be sufficiently compensated. Is there a need for physics experts when the region is severely lacking in agriculture?

Re:

Exactly - they need civil engineers and agriculturalists, not physicists. Sounds like this project is a symptom of 'when you have a hammer everything looks like a nail'-itis though the principals do have good intentions and it probably will help some individuals move up and out.

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sooo, British physicists should go to Africa and teach farming? .... or just stay put and shut up?

We can all contribute with our own skills.

The idea here is not to create an economic effect. That is secondary.

The point of the project is to find and empower the brilliant potential mathematicians and physicists in this poorly served region. The purpose of finding and empowering these people is to empower the human race and to advance our knowledge and understanding of the universe.

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Not quite sure why people assume all of the Africa is starving or lacks critical infrastructure. Take a look at the pictures on the wikipedia entry for Johannesburg, for comparison sake. There are definitely places in Africa where physicists, engineers and scientists of all types can, and are, earning a decent living.

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I leave the obvious conclusion as an exercise for the reader.

So you [I assume you by the tone of your post] oppress and exploit a certain group of society for a century and are surprised what happens when the lid finally gets blown off?

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I agree that Mugabe and the like need to go, and so do the voters in Zimbabwe, but I don't know that population control is necessary. There are population issues in China and India, as well, and they manage to avoid the same sort of hell that a lot of Africa is in.

Education, infrastructure, and Mugabe hanging by his feet like a piñata would be a good start.

Of course they won't fund it

If Hawking wants to get money for this sort of thing, he needs to make it into a reality show and get a TV network on board. Some ideas:

Africa's Next Top Physicist. Every week, contestants will be tasked with solving a major problem in physics. Their efforts will be judged by a panel led by Hawking, using Tyra Banks as a body double. The loser will be eliminated from the competition and thrown into the African savanna, where he will be eaten by a lion.

African Idol: Physics edition. Auditions will be held in various tribal areas throughout Africa. Hilarity will ensue as the ever-caustic Hawking mocks contestants' failures to adequately explain string theory. Losers will be thrown into the African savanna, where they will be eaten by lions.

Deriving With the Physicists. Contestants will be paired up with professional physicists and tasked to derive the Unified Field Theory. Each week, progress will be gaged by a panel of judges. Losers will be thrown into the African savanna, where the lions, fully sated from contestants from the earlier shows, will ignore them. They will then be shot by poachers.

Survivor: Africa. Contestants will spend the entire show dealing with extreme heat, drought, and the ever-present threat of starvation and disease while trying to scrape up enough money to attend school while keeping his family fed and not dying from malaria. The one who can manage to survive long enough to attend a post-graduate physics program wins.

No more Einstein's

There was one Einstein, there will not be another, ever. Nor will there be another Newton, Maxwell, Bohr, Dirac, Feynman, Weinberg, or Hawking. Very accomplished folks, but all over the place with their personalities, like how they would be in a bar (a topless bar if it was Feynman).

I support the project, not the marketing of the project.

Small Pool of Healthy

I doubt he will find much because it is such an undernourished and politically unstable place on the whole. You likely need a large population of relatively healthy people in order to produce sufficient geniuses. Poorly-fed brains with too few toys are not likely to end up at the top. Einstein traced his thought process back to a compass that his dad gave him.

If only say 10 percent of Africa's population fits that bill, then you'd get about 10% of the hits compared to a similar population of mostly middle-class countries. This is not being racist, but merely observing the health of Africa's population as it is.
     

Re:Small Pool of Healthy

Many exceptional athletes: soccer players (Didier Drogba), marathon runners, sprint runners, long distance jumpers, etc. come from Africa.

If their eating habits didn't stop them from becoming champions, why should the same food affect possible geniuses?

Africa and its genetic diversity

New studies show there is more genetic diversity between humans in Africa:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1288178 [nih.gov]
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/03/050310103042.htm [sciencedaily.com]
http://www.science.psu.edu/alert/Tishkoff1-1999.htm [psu.edu]

It might be easier to find a genius among very different subjects, than finding one in a group where everybody is similar.

Hawking is a genius

This is to build wealth in Africa?

Look, I'm all for helping Africa get great colleges and postgrad institutions. It's a good thing, and certainly can't hurt. But if these people think that a postgrad center for math and physics is going to help pump great wealth into Africa, I'm afraid they'll be dissapointed. They'd be better off building business and engineering institutes. People like Patrice Motsepe [forbes.com] will do far more to bring wealth to Africa than someone like Hawking.

Re:

Look, I'm all for helping Africa get great colleges and postgrad institutions. It's a good thing, and certainly can't hurt. But if these people think that a postgrad center for math and physics is going to help pump great wealth into Africa, I'm afraid they'll be dissapointed. They'd be better off building business and engineering institutes. People like Patrice Motsepe will do far more to bring wealth to Africa than someone like Hawking.

Certainly a postgraduate institution alone won't solve all the problems but I do think it will help more than you expect.

I suspect one thing sorely missing in a lot of Africa right now is pride. Political strife, poverty, and lack of education are common, it seems the only thing African nations can occasionally succeed at on a world stage is athletics.

If they do get a real legitimate world-class research institution I think it gives two main effects. First is pride, they see an African research institution

Nice idea but not going to make any real change.

It is kind of like trying to cure a broken leg with antibiotics. You might need the antibiotics but you'd really better get a splint on there first.

I.e. start by identifying the **real** root cause and work on that.

Re:

Some of us prize knowledgs and wisdom far more than money. Not everyone worships at the alter af mammon.

Re:Einstein didn't create much wealth

Unfortunately, theoretical physics is not very practical and therefore does not create much wealth.

You are kidding, right?

I don't even know where to begin, but here are some counterexamples of theoretical physics being quite practical: nuclear fission reactors, fusion weapons, transistors/microchips, computers, internet, TVs, sattelites/GPS, cell phones and wireless comms, MRI and PET scans, electron microscopy, LASERs...

See, I think you are making the same mistake of underestimating theoretical physics as the Germans did in the 1930s...

Re:Einstein didn't create much wealth

Something like: "Theoretical physicists turn money into ideas. Engineers turn ideas into money."

Re:Einstein is over-rated

Race has nothing to do with it. Look at yourself; dumb as a box of rocks.

Put any kid of any race (say, your kid) in a third world country with little food, no medical care, and have unlearned people raise him, and don't send him to school, and he'll be just like the native Africans.

Take one of those African kids and raise him in an enlightened industrial society and he'll excel as much as anyone. It isn't about self esteem, it's about quality of life.

As to your own stupidity, racism is a tool of the rich to keep everyone else at each others' throats so they won't notice who's really using and abusing them, tool.

Re:Einstein is over-rated

[quote]
Put any kid of any race (say, your kid) in a third world country with little food, no medical care, and have unlearned people raise him, and don't send him to school, and he'll be just like the native Africans.
[/quote]

Absolutely true. As an example, look at the Kalash tribal people of Pakistan. They're basically white-caucasian (descended from Greeks), but they are among the poorest ethnic groups in the region.

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rising to the bait, there are fundamental problems to Africa, the two key ones are corruption in the governments and the continuous fighting within and between countries (for resources and between tribes). The D.R. Congo should be one of the richest countries in the world with its unequalled wealth of mineral resources, but years of corruption, greed and fighting have ensured its ability to exploit those resources are minimal.

another key problem is that foreign governments have caused major problems. for

Re:Einstein is over-rated

"If race is irrelevant how do you explain the obvious widespread advanced technological achievements of certain races vs others who, if left untouched, would most likely still be living as primitives for the next thousand centuries?"

Read Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies by Jared Diamond, (or download the torrent of the movie the made from the book if reading is too hard for you) and you may become less ignorant.

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This is why the best football and baseball players don't get paid more than our top engineers... wait, what?

Re:Einstein is over-rated

If a black man did something horrible to you or your family, you have my sympathies.

A member of my family was beaten to death by a black man in the street. It happened before I was born. Routine mugging gone awry. She spent the rest of her "life" in pain and a vegetative state. It was the woman who raised my mother.

I don't blame race. I blame human nature. Most people of any color are just vicious animals running on fear and greed and desperation.

But I like to think -- or, I hope -- that I am a man and not a beast. And I believe that to be this I need, constantly, to overcome the paranoia that would make me a fearful animal and not a man. I believe abject racism is just one more form of animal paranoia.

I do not believe in a utopia where race does not matter. I learned that again in college, and it was my saddest lesson. You see, racist Chinese people say the same things about white men that you say about blacks -- that they (we) are fetishists, perverts, rapists, deviants, and worse. I learned this the hard way when, for six months, I dated a nice and good-looking girl from Shanghai. People said nasty things, whispered snide comments -- particularly two kinds of people: (1) uneducated whites, and (2) racist Chinese people. My mind's eye saw the caricature of the racist white man -- sitting on his front porch, spitting tobacco, and saying, "Watch out! Them watermelon-eating niggers take our women!" morphing into a Chinese student who was pointing at me, and the "nigger" becoming a stereotyped "Westerner" with my face. She was a nice girl, and though we did not have enough in common to continue the relationship -- our value systems were moving rapidly apart, and it became more and more clear that we, in basic philosophy, wanted very different things -- we certainly did not deserve the kind of comments we received. It was insulting to me and dehumanizing to her: The assumption by her "own people" seemed to be that she could not possibly be appealing as a human being, that the only reason anyone could want to date her was that he were sick, that he were some kind of twisted pervert and that the only appealing quality she could possibly have was the ethnicity she happened to come from. She had warned me when we started that people would say these things, and I had replied naively that it didn't matter, but I guess in fact I had really thought it wouldn't happen enough that it could matter. I had to learn the hard way that this wasn't true. It was severely disillusioning.

I do not want to be like those people who spoke insults and acid. I do not believe in utopia, but I reject their petty tribalism, and I am a better man than they were.

Are you? Are you a better man? A thinking, reasoning being with thoughts as well as instincts? Or are you a beast yourself?

I'm not asking you to change your mind immediately. I'm not telling you to discard what you think just because people call it "racism:" having a name for an idea and saying "it's bad" doesn't by itself mean it's wrong. I'm just asking you to moderate your thoughts for a bit, to let the man overcome the beast. Because I think -- or hope -- that in time and with thoughtfulness, you will conclude differently than you do now -- and I don't think bitterness is a very good route to peace for society, or to happiness for yourself.

Cheers.

Re:no post-grad center on the whole continent?

If TFA (which I haven't read) suggested that there's no post-grad physics or math department in Africa, it's wrong. I have personally visited several physics departments in various African countries that had Ph.D programs. For example, here's a math program [uonbi.ac.ke] and here's a physics one. [uct.ac.za]

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Does it start flashing when one is detected, and does a helicopter land outside shortly after that?